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Jクラブ元社長ら鼎談「サッカー場建設となると反対が多い」「公立の病院をや消防署を建てるときに『ペイしますか』とは言わない…」

スポンサーリンク
350名無しさん@恐縮ですID:KtouuB9Z02023/06/30(金) 17:40:26.52
病院消防署は公共の役に立ってるから「ペイしますか」なんて言われないんだろ
まず根本がおかしい
351名無しさん@恐縮ですID:noIpuXvz02023/06/30(金) 17:40:37.26
ヘディング脳全開だな
352名無しさん@恐縮ですID:Yyo9vt0o02023/06/30(金) 17:41:01.54
スタジアムの規格の要求が過大過ぎ
354名無しさん@恐縮ですID:Q1++TU9p02023/06/30(金) 17:41:05.20
一般人が誰でも利用できる草サッカー場なら税金でいくらでも作ればいい。
興行のために月に2~3回一つのチームだけが独占的に使用する
サッカー場は税金ではなくそのチームが自前で造れ
357名無しさん@恐縮ですID:pENMMcz402023/06/30(金) 17:41:57.53
で、こいつら役員報酬いくらもらってるんや
それ税金だぞ
358名無しさん@恐縮ですID:9SjJeFPn02023/06/30(金) 17:42:14.20
そりゃそうだろ
そもそも新球場建設なんて絶対当初の予定を大幅に超えるものって知られとる
359名無しさん@恐縮ですID:CdHFdujA02023/06/30(金) 17:42:32.55
野球場と共用出来るように工夫したら
月二回の土曜日以外使わないし
360名無しさん@恐縮ですID:WnEGc2rt02023/06/30(金) 17:42:50.74
サッカー場はプロ興行用ならペイさせないと大規模に作って赤字たれ流しではね
それに必ずしも無くても良いし、学生用ならグラウンドでもできる
病院は必要、それにペイさせないと維持できないだろ
消防署も必要だがこれはペイする必要はない
361名無しさん@恐縮ですID:yFFvFNKK02023/06/30(金) 17:43:15.22
さっすが税リーグwww
362名無しさん@恐縮ですID:wLZqYYeP02023/06/30(金) 17:43:36.94
結局のところ公共性が大事なんだわ
1つのチームが独占するなら黒字が求められるし、赤字なら公共性が求められる
それだけの話なんだわ
364名無しさん@恐縮ですID:VPD+nUUo02023/06/30(金) 17:44:51.28
公共スタジアムを用意してくれって理屈なら
Jのスタジアム要項なんか知ったことじゃないから
お前らの要求飲む必要はないんだよなぁ
365名無しさん@恐縮ですID:aYRPbyHa02023/06/30(金) 17:45:00.03
病院や消防だろうと大阪維新は言うよ。「赤字の公共事業は民営化し廃止しろ」と。
366名無しさん@恐縮ですID:TBh83uvT02023/06/30(金) 17:45:12.46
いつものアンチ野球サカ豚がこの記事ツイッターで拡散してるけど、これ拡散しないほうがよくないか?w
あまりにも恥ずかしい発言だぞ

野球場がーは比較対象としてはまあいいとして公立病院とか言い出すの大人としてヤバい発言だぞ

368名無しさん@恐縮ですID:0+WkZOks02023/06/30(金) 17:46:48.04
サッカーが好き野球が嫌いでもいいだろうけど
病院や消防をひきあいに出している事を何とも思わず肯定できるなら
狂ってると思われても仕方ない
369名無しさん@恐縮ですID:vNpvcJHZ02023/06/30(金) 17:47:24.78
Jリーグになる前の大企業の名前でやってた頃の方が良くない?
370名無しさん@恐縮ですID:OqwG5WoC02023/06/30(金) 17:48:32.52
このサッカースタジアム作ったっていいじゃんという意見に

「シュトゥットガルト市はメルセデス・ベンツの本社があるので税収は多いと思うが、約80億円掛かるスタジアムの改修費用は市が全額出して、市の発展のためにクラブは金利を払うだけでよくて、不良債権にならなければいい」

なんでこの例を出した
山梨にベンツぐらいの税収あるんかよ
で、不良債権にならないのかよ

371名無しさん@恐縮ですID:WnEGc2rt02023/06/30(金) 17:48:50.71
芝生で維持コストもかかるからなあ、プロが使えない低予算のまでだな
大都市なら中規模のあっても良いけど札幌市でさえ維持出来ないようだし金余ってるとこ以外はもう止めたほうが良い
373名無しさん@恐縮ですID:dY/2a5XY02023/06/30(金) 17:50:34.68
サッカー場は縛り多すぎて、他の一般利用難しいし、税金食うしなんもいい事がないという書き込みをよく見るで
マジで建てたら貧乏くじやろ
374名無しさん@恐縮ですID:larq5kt802023/06/30(金) 17:51:09.44
病院に足運ぶのは病人って考えると
サポーターも病気みたいなもんと言ってる様な
376名無しさん@恐縮ですID:6twCK6TL02023/06/30(金) 17:51:33.44
卑しい乞食たかり集団 それがJリーグ
377名無しさん@恐縮ですID:EWE6QHtc02023/06/30(金) 17:52:18.29
やっぱりヘディングって脳に良くないな
378名無しさん@恐縮ですID:wEMTDx0p02023/06/30(金) 17:52:28.46
頭おかしいwwwwww
379名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW02023/06/30(金) 17:52:32.04
木村正明(ファジアーノ岡山オーナー)「私が調べたときに日本に野球場は610あって、このとき反対運動は起こってないんですね。サッカー場(専用スタジアム)は当時十幾つか。そこから増えていますが、例えば剣道場や武道館の建て替えなどはすんなりいっています。サッカー場となるとこれが途端に反対運動が起こりやすい。どうしても”地域が元気になる”という観点でいかないと…野球場でペイしている施設はドーム球場以外は日本に1つもありません。
384名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>379
こういう野球に都合の悪いところを全てカットしてスレ立てるのは悪質極まりない
389名無しさん@恐縮ですID:TqVc48kc0
>>384
自分でレスつけちゃう、そういうところだぞ
392名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>389
元の記事の野球に都合の悪いところはカットしてスレ立ててることを言ってるだけ

ペイしてる野球場は殆どないが、サッカーだけは文句言われると、はっきり述べてるだろ

397名無しさん@恐縮ですID:djVt/nnR0
>>384
これ野球に都合が悪いんじゃなくてサッカーに都合悪いんやで
その610の球場のうちJ3ライセンス級の球場なんて1割もいかないからな

これを同じにみせようとしている超悪質で詭弁な手口やね

405名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>397
610ある球場の殆どが赤字、そこには坊っちゃん等のプロ野球が本拠地にしない数万人の球場も含まれてる
それらを建設する時には文句を言う団体は出てこない
408名無しさん@恐縮ですID:djVt/nnR0
>>405
だからそのぼっちゃん級の球場なんて日本に20もないの意味わかる?

それを同じにみせようとする超悪質で卑怯者ってことだよ

433名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>408
おいおい、数万の球場ってかなりあるぞ?
例えば青森県だけでもすぐに複数見つかった

青森県営野球場
収容人員 21,016人

青森市営野球場(合浦公園スタジアム)
収容人員 10,010人

長根野球場
収容人員 11,000人

弘前市運動公園野球場(はるか夢球場)
収容人員 15,050人

他にも有りすぎて困るから、自分で調べて
https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E9%87%8E%E7%90%83%E5%A0%B4%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7

480名無しさん@恐縮ですID:S46FVy7G0
>>433
1万台は数万とは言わない。
497名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>480
他の都道府県も見てこい

2万人以上はほぼあると見て良い

545名無しさん@恐縮ですID:S46FVy7G0
>>497
あるだろうね。
でもそのクラスだと高校野球とか、それなりにアマが使うだろ。
たまにプロの地方開催もあるだろうし。
サッカーは専用にすると事実上そこを本拠にするクラブしか使えなくなるのとは違う。
484名無しさん@恐縮ですID:djVt/nnR0
>>480
しかも客席芝生スタンドで席じゃないのわかってないしな
449名無しさん@恐縮ですID:v0gkPM550
>>433
見てきたら全然坊ちゃんレベルじゃなかった
947名無しさん@恐縮ですID:6s4PjDr+0
>>433
そのうちすべての座席に独立した椅子があって屋根があるものをだしてみろよ
内野席なんてその半分以下 更に独立シートなんてさらに半分以下 屋根に至っては殆どないわ
952名無しさん@恐縮ですID:MlyUIl5l0
>>947
ベンチ席芝生席屋根なしの、芝は維持費三分の一の日本自生の高麗芝の地方野球場のが
下手なJクラブの高級スタジアムの観客動員より利用者数多いんよな
437名無しさん@恐縮ですID:djVt/nnR0
>>433
それ外野芝生の見込みで席数じゃないで
441名無しさん@恐縮ですID:wLZqYYeP0
>>433
坊っちゃんスタジアムって3万人収容のプロ野球の本拠地クラスのスタジアムだぞ?
それと同じところがほとんどないだろ
953名無しさん@恐縮ですID:6s4PjDr+0
>>441
野球の名前の名付け親が松山出身だしな さらに野球どころでもある 一応リーグも敬意を評して年間で4試合くらいは公式戦とオールスターやってるな
967名無しさん@恐縮ですID:yFkx9JbB0
>>953
ん?中馬庚は松山出身じゃ無いぞ
453名無しさん@恐縮ですID:pKxSULNN0
>>441
すぐに思い浮かぶのは宮崎のサンマリンスタジアムか?
キャンプで巨人が使ってるところ
キャンプが終わったら大学野球がその後よく使ってる
957名無しさん@恐縮ですID:6s4PjDr+0
>>453
今年はWBC代表で相当ペイしたな
463名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>453
wiki見りゃわかるが、殆どの都道府県で2万人以上の野球場がある

プロが年に1,2回使用するために数十億から100億掛けてる

489名無しさん@恐縮ですID:pKxSULNN0
>>463
それ外野の芝生席も含めてるだろ
高校野球とかで使うのは内野座席5000の外野芝生合わせて15000人ぐらい収容出来る球場が多いよ
そういう球場は稼働率が高くて市民が多く利用するから赤字でも問題視されないの
それが個人がほぼタダで独占的に使うなら問題になるのは当たり前だろ
469名無しさん@恐縮ですID:djVt/nnR0
>>463
だからみりゃわかるけど、それは客席じゃないって何度いったらわかるんだい
芝生席で理論上入れるってレベルや
454名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>441
「そこには坊っちゃん等のプロ野球が本拠地にしない数万人の球場も含まれてる」
という俺のコメントへのレスだったはずだが、突然「数万」から「3万」に限定して理由を教えてくれる?w
上にも書いたが1万人収容でも数十億掛かるし、維持費も掛かる
当然、プロ野球が本拠地にしないところは赤字だ
466名無しさん@恐縮ですID:wLZqYYeP0
>>454
坊っちゃんスタジアムって具体的な名前言ってるからそれと同じクラスのところは全然ないって言ってるんだけど?
んでそれらが赤字だと何か問題があるの?
494名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>466
だから、俺は元々「坊っちゃんのような数万の球場」を論点に話してるだけなんだが

「2万人以上の数十億から100億規模の野球場が沢山ある」

と言う事実が理解出来たならそれでええわ

516名無しさん@恐縮ですID:wLZqYYeP0
>>494
それが赤字なら何か問題あるの?
590名無しさん@恐縮ですID:wLZqYYeP0
>>494
ん?赤字なら何か問題あるの?
460名無しさん@恐縮ですID:cEEOi+Ne0
>>454
プロのサッカークラブが使うなら野球のように黒字出来るってことですよね
470名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>460
その点は俺も否定してないけど、僅か12球団で野球人口も激減するなかで規模も数も異常に多いのは明らか

この記事ではその点をちゃんと突いてるんだよな

513名無しさん@恐縮ですID:cEEOi+Ne0
>>470
河川敷や外野芝生みたいな球場含めたら数は多くなるだろうし
それで良いなら行政に嘆願する価値はあると思うよ
坊ちゃんスタジアムみたいな豪華な球場もあるけどアマが頻繁に使うので稼働日数が多い
プロサッカークラブが使うなら坊ちゃんスタジアム並みの稼働日数は無理だと思うよ
479名無しさん@恐縮ですID:LDcKeRBY0
>>470
河川敷に球技場を増やせという主張ならな
俺たちの専用スタジアムを税金で作れという主張ならぜんぜん的外れ
411名無しさん@恐縮ですID:OqwG5WoC0
>>405
ペイできてるドーム球場がないって話だけど
そのドーム球場ごとないっていうオチじゃねえのかと思うんだが
まじどこなのだろうか
413名無しさん@恐縮ですID:aVkmN9xj0
>>405
坊っちゃんスタジアムとか愛媛県の高校野球の会場で使ってる公共施設なんだから当たり前でしょ
Jのクラブチームが使ってるサッカーの専スタなんて一般が使えない施設なんだからさ
385名無しさん@恐縮ですID:OqwG5WoC0
修繕費80億を税収で出せの前に
建設費税収から出せという話だな
>>379
610もドーム球場があるわけじゃあないんだがな
390名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>385
数個あるドーム以外は赤字って話しだぞ
400名無しさん@恐縮ですID:aVkmN9xj0
>>390
プロ野球の球団が本拠地で使ってる球場が建設費ペイ出来てないはずないでしょ
例えば甲子園なんかドームじゃないわけどどう説明するわけ?
409名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>400
プロ野球って12球団しかないじゃん
610のうちの12だと、599の球場は赤字になるんだが?
424名無しさん@恐縮ですID:aVkmN9xj0
>>409
つまり一つもないってのは明確な嘘だよな
417名無しさん@恐縮ですID:LDcKeRBY0
>>409
Jリーグも河川敷の多目的グラウンドでやればいいということだな
428名無しさん@恐縮ですID:xP97Jlx70
>>409
Jリーグはプロですら赤字ですが
395名無しさん@恐縮ですID:xP97Jlx70
>>390
大嘘じゃん
甲子園がペイしてないわけないだろ
398名無しさん@恐縮ですID:OqwG5WoC0
>>390
そのドーム球場どれなんだろね
で、〇〇市市民球場とかそら野球は過去の残照でたくさんあるけど
使用量と維持費のバランスは額が小さいところで赤字はあるやろね
数が馬鹿みたいに多い野球場だけど金額ベースだとスタジアムのほうが金かかってたと思うがな
432名無しさん@恐縮ですID:wLZqYYeP0
444名無しさん@恐縮ですID:bNhUSRUW0
>>432
スタジアムの建設費の多くは座席数で決める
あれ一つで40~50万するとか

1万人の会場だと50億以上しちゃうのはそういう理由が大きい

404名無しさん@恐縮ですID:Z8WVWw1h0
>>379
建設費を繰上げ償還したマツダスタジアムがペイしてないってどう言うこと?
425名無しさん@恐縮ですID:VIX7dsis0
>>379
剣道場や武道場が分不相応な客席数やら屋根の形状やらを求めてきたら反対運動も起きるという当然の考えが何故浮かばないのだろう
ヘディングの影響が既に出ているのではないかと心配になるレベル
380名無しさん@恐縮ですID:+LESW/Fw02023/06/30(金) 17:53:06.29
Jリーグがスタジアム基準を見直せばだいたい解決するのにな
頑固すぎだろ
日本じゃ天然芝のサッカー専用スタジアムとか
4万人収容のスタジアムとか維持できないって認めろよ
381名無しさん@恐縮ですID:g69xh+6P02023/06/30(金) 17:53:13.39
病院、消防署→公共
アマの競技場→公共
プロが独占する競技場→公共ではない
わざと混同してるの最悪やな
382名無しさん@恐縮ですID:WnEGc2rt02023/06/30(金) 17:53:21.46
税金頼りだな、もう利権特権かよ
383名無しさん@恐縮ですID:dY/2a5XY02023/06/30(金) 17:53:25.23
公共の施設からは程遠いやろ
市民利用がほぼ出来ない縛りやろ
386名無しさん@恐縮ですID:wUrGCA1n02023/06/30(金) 17:54:18.00
野球場 市民も学生も使えます夏は花火大会も出来ます
武道場 市民も学生も使えますコンサートやプロレスに使えます

Jリーグが税金で建てるサッカー専用スタジアム
年間20試合程度しか稼働しません
市民や学生は使えません(芝が痛むので)
コンサートやイベントにも使えません(芝が痛むので)

こんなもんに税金100億ひつようなわけねえだろ

387名無しさん@恐縮ですID:UCT8vAjD02023/06/30(金) 17:54:42.75
山梨が名古屋経済圏くらいになって、地元企業が巨額の税金を市に納めるようになったら
シュトゥットガルト市と同レベルを要求してもいいかもと思うけどw

> シュトゥットガルト市はメルセデス・ベンツの本社があるので税収は多いと思う

388名無しさん@恐縮ですID:9Z7jJtS002023/06/30(金) 17:55:00.15
図書館やプールより多い税金で作られらやきう場
収益性を問題にするならやきう場全部潰せよ
401名無しさん@恐縮ですID:WnEGc2rt0
>>388
俺の田舎なんだが結構立派な野球場ある
はっきりいってこれも要らない
高校の大会やプロもオープン戦で使ったりしていて当日はそれなりに人入っているんだけどさ
391名無しさん@恐縮ですID:WnEGc2rt02023/06/30(金) 17:56:15.87
地上波で扱ってもらって新たな客増やせよ
目先のネットの収益では新規が入って来ないと思うね
393名無しさん@恐縮ですID:5mnDdiLr02023/06/30(金) 17:56:59.64
何言ってんだこいつら
394名無しさん@恐縮ですID:M77YvApm02023/06/30(金) 17:57:10.82
球蹴りと公共施設を一緒にしないでください
396名無しさん@恐縮ですID:+TVAcJOX02023/06/30(金) 17:57:47.64
この発言は永久保存したほうがいいな
これがJリーグの考え方なのか
934名無しさん@恐縮ですID:6s4PjDr+0
>>396
こりゃ相当上から怒られるな
岡山のオーナーも収支の質問をしたらまず最初にサカスタ必要ですだと
だから金が無いと建てられないだろう
お前が全部出すなら話は別だけど
943名無しさん@恐縮ですID:A1KSga1u0
>>934
この人前体制でJリーグのナンバー2やってた人だよ。元ゴールドマンサックスだかの人。
399名無しさん@恐縮ですID:S9TAfpj502023/06/30(金) 17:58:53.35
サッカー場なんていらないよ
税金の無駄遣い
スポンサーリンク
未分類
げいすぽ

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